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Interview: Captain
Timothy Cheney
Date: October 25,
2009
Time: 1334L –
1510L
Location:
Present were: David Tew, Malcolm Brenner, David Lawrence- National
Transportation Safety Board (NTSB); T.R. Proven –FAA, Pete Sahler –
Northwest Airlines; Dan Coogan – ALPA; Christopher M. Brown - ALPA
Representative.
During the interview, Captain Cheney stated the following:
His full name was Timothy Brian Cheney and he was 53 years old. His date
of hire at Northwest Airlines was 11/18/1985. He began flying as a
private pilot in
His total flight time was estimated at over 20,000 hours. On the A320,
he flew 3-4 years as an F/O, and 7 years as captain. His estimated total
A320 time was about 10,000 hours with about 7,000 hours as
pilot-in-command (PIC). On the DC 9, he was a instructor for 1 year at
Republic. He stated he had no previous accidents, incidents or
violations. He had no failures of check rides or proficiency checks. He
stated that the only limitation he had on his medical was to have
reading glasses, which he had on the incident flight. . . Captain Cheney
stated that his health was excellent and that there had been no major
changes in his health in the past year.
His hearing was OK. He used reading glasses. He did not use prescription
medicine. He drank very little alcohol and did not use tobacco. He drank
about 3-4 cups of coffee per day,. In the 72-hours before the event, the
only medication he took was his daily aspirin because he had irregular
heartbeats. He had a stress test performed because of the irregular
heartbeats, but nothing was found and the irregular heartbeat was not on
his medical record. There were no major changes in his financial
situation in the past year and his finances were OK. The NWA Chapter 11
action made a major financial impact and had been a distraction that
created a “bitter and angry” environment but he tried to leave it out of
the cockpit. Everyone was very bitter and angry about it.
There had been no major changes in his personal life in the past year.
He had been married for 27 years to the same spouse and had two grown
children, a 23-year old daughter and 19-year old son. Neither of his
children lived with him. His wife was a nurse and worked part-time. They
lived near |
Regarding sleep problems, he went to Alaska Sleep labs about 15 years
ago because his wife complained of his snoring, and was told he does not
have sleep apnea and he was not diagnosed with sleep apnea. He
voluntarily began sleeping with a CPAP device to control snoring for his
wife’s sake. He has not otherwise sought medical assistance for sleep
issues, but not on trips, and he did not bring it on the incident trip.
He “guesses” it helped him sleep. He stated he had no personal problems
“other than this event.” “It’s been a huge change”.
For commuting purposes, he bid trips that left late in the afternoon and
ended early in the day so he could jumpseat to MSP without having to
overnight there. The Northwest Airlines policy was that if you booked a
jumpseat up to 10 ½ days in advance or listed as a passenger with a back
up flight available, and you were bumped, the company would provide you
with a must ride priority on the next flight. However, the new Delta
Airlines policy that was now being implemented was more complex,
required booking trips from 1 ½ to 3 ½ days in advance, was not as user
friendly, and might result in a pay cut if no jumpseat was available and
the pilot had to ride in a backup seat.
He stated this was his first trip with this particular F/O, and thought
he was “ok”. He said “I’ve flown with better before.” When asked about
suggestions for the F/O to be better, he stated that everyone was
struggling with the new Delta Airlines procedures, but he thought the
F/O could have been better on the preflight items. Regarding the
preflight, he stated that the “Delta procedures are so culturally
different than ours” and “we’re still trying to figure out who does
what”. The non flying pilot versus the flying pilot have different
procedures, and are different than “how we used to do” them. When he was
flying, it was the F/O’s duty to do the overhead cockpit items, but they
were not done well by this F/O. He stated that he was the flying pilot
for both legs [day one and the incident flight]. He stated that there
were no minimum equipment items (MELs) on the airplane.
He stated there were no fights, they did not fall asleep, they did not
argue. But they did do a good job coming in. He stated they did not
watch the press info until they got back to their home. He stated that
“there’s no excuse”, and “I let my guard down”, and “I wish I could
explain why”. When asked if he ever nodded off, he stated “no” and felt
well rested. He stated they talked about vacation bidding, procedures,
and insurance but could not remember if they spoke about insurance on
this particular flight. He stated that with the merger “there’s a lot
going on”, and “I just don’t understand this”. He stated that “when
things get quiet” in the cockpit, you notice it, and said they heard ”
chatter” on the radio.
His October bid schedule was good. He had about six days off-duty before
this trip. His sleep was average. He did outside projects, house
projects and errands around the house. On Monday night, October 19, he
went to bed at about 2230 On Tuesday October 20, he awoke at about 0400
after going the night before. His sleep must have been okay because he
was awakened by the alarm. He caught a 0630 PDT flight from SEA and
arrived at MSP about 1130 CDT. At MSP, he spoke for about one hour with
a preferential bidding system (PBS) instructor about the bidding
process. . The instructor was helpful. Captain Cheney then sat in a
recliner chair in the crew room. Some Delta Airlines crew schedulers
were there and he spoke with them for about 35-40 minutes about
Northwest and Delta company differences on jumpseat policy.
He then checked in for his flight and went to the airplane. The
preflight duties were normal. The airplane arrived in SAN about 1930
which was about 30 minutes behind schedule). His wife had come from SEA
to join him for the SAN layover and he met her in the hotel room. The
hotel drove them to a nearby restaurant where he “ate too much”: a
hamburger, two tacos, and a beer. They walked back to the hotel, they
watched the news, and he went to sleep about 2230-2300 MDT.
On Wednesday October 21, he awoke about 0730 MDT. The quality of sleep
was pretty good. He and his wife walked about 20 minutes to a restaurant
for breakfast, then returned to the hotel and sat on the deck. He made a
1300 pickup to depart the hotel. He sometimes had difficulty falling or
staying asleep at hotels, which could be noisy. He usually turned on the
room fan to mask the noise. However, the SAN hotel was good,
He characterized workload on the event flight as normal. He had never
received training on fatigue but read some material on his own. He had
never called in fatigued. He did not know any pilot who did call in
fatigued although he heard it happened. Pilot morale was better now than
it was three years ago. It was average. There were many changes
happening. Regarding the drug testing, he clarified that Delta airlines
did drug test the crew. On the cockpit overhead flow during preflight
checks, the F/O is suppose to put the seat belt sign “on” and the
parking brake was left “off”, so under the new Pilot Flying versus Pilot
Not-flying duties, it was all new to them. There had been four phases of
operational manual changes since the merger. He stated that in the “old
system”, the captain always did the overhead preflight, and the flows
were now different and this was a “cultural” change. In MSP, the F/O did
not perform the overhead flow as now required, and in SAN, he forgot
portions of the flow as well. Captain Cheney “We’re all learning these
procedures”, but he thought the F/O “could’ve done it better”.
There were no problems with the aircraft, but did note that it was slow
to climb to from FL350-FL370, and in “open climb” went up only 200 fpm
at first, but then continued and everything normal at cruise flight. He
used his headset up to top of climb, and did not use them in cruise
flight until the top of descent. He was not exactly sure where the
volume on the speaker was set, but he did hear radio transmissions, and
the F/O was working the radios.
He stated the non-flying pilot was responsible for the radios under the
old NWA procedures, and that had not changed with the new Delta
procedures. On the SAN-MSP leg, he stated that the radio panels were set
up with the ATC frequency selected on the #1 radio, and out of 10,000
feet he selected frequency 121.50 on radio number 2, and “believes” he
had it on the whole time. He took his headset off a little before
reaching cruise altitude. He has had the opportunity to simultaneously
use the speaker and headset.
He stated that at cruise altitude FL370 [he was not sure how long after reaching cruise altitude], a F/A called and asked if they wanted any extra meals. They said yes and also asked for a restroom break. When he left the cockpit, he told the F/O “you have the aircraft”. He then came back into the cockpit and they both ate their meals, put the meal trays on the floor, and then a discussion started about a brand new bidding system. The captain said he thought he started the discussion. He asked the F/O “how’d you do on your bids”. He stated that he was not happy with his bid results because he did not receive the bid he expected. He asked the F/O “you commute, how’d you do on yours”. The captain said he then pulled his laptop out, and put it on his lap. He had a copy of the bids on his laptop, and noted that most all the changes they had seen were in electronic format, and required a laptop. He pointed out his bids to the F/O, and after 4-5 minutes of talking, the F/O pulled out his laptop.
The captain stated he then folded his laptop and placed it on top of his
flight bag located next to his knee, and spoke more about the bids as
the F/O showed him his bids. The captain then pulled out his table and
started taking notes, and never heard a radio call though he heard
“chatter but never a radio call”, and that “no one called us” that he
was aware of. He stated that both laptops were out, but with the laptop
out, he could see the display. He didn’t recall what he last saw on the
ND. He stated that it was supposed to be a conversation on how to bid,
and was never intended to go that long. “This was only suppose to take
10 minutes”, and he was “blown away” with how long the conversation
lasted. He said he felt embarrassed about this. He said “I was wrong”
and “let another force come from the outside and distract me”. He stated
that they continued to talk about bidding for what he thought was 15
minutes, then a F/A called up to the cockpit and asked what time they
were going to land.
He then looked at his MCDU and saw no flight plan, flipped his NAV
display from Arc to Rose (compass), saw Duluth to the left, and Eau
Claire to the 2 o’clock position with no estimated time of arrival (ETA)
shown, and white lines along the FMS display. He said after 24 years of
flying “I’ve never, ever, been in this situation”, put his “passengers
at risk”, and “you don’t know how sorry I am”. When asked about his
displays, he said he kept “airports” up on his EFIS display to show
where the airports are. He stated that he then realized what had
happened and told the F/O “we just flew over the
He stated that the F/O did a pretty good job and got them back onto the
correct ATC frequency. When the F/A had asked “when are we going to get
there”, he didn’t answer. He later got on the passenger address (PA)
system and said “they are taking arrivals from the east, we should be on
the ground 25-28 minutes” and did not further explain the situation. He
said to the F/O, “they’ll find out on the ground”. The F/O was working
the radios and the captain was flying. He said he did not initially
notice the ACARS messages on the ECAM. After he spoke on the PA, and
while being vectored to the
With reference to position reports, he did use a specific prompt in the
MCDU. When texting to dispatch, he used a free text function. When
dispatch sent a message, a message would appear on the ECAM, but he did
not initially notice a message on the event flight. He stated that on
the B-757 airplane, there was a chime when you received a dispatch
message, and stated “I sure wish we had one of those today or I wouldn’t
be sitting here” today. Captain Cheney said “It’s no excuse for what we
did, but it sure would’ve helped”. He stated he did fly the B-757
aircraft with SECAL, but never really used SELCAL on the Airbus, and was
not sure if they even had it on the aircraft.
At the top of climb, he stated that he believes it was “Bonnie” who came
up during first break. On the flight plan page, he stated that an
arrival was programmed into the FMS, and that he “put it in”, but did
not enter a runway. He stated that he didn’t recall if they received any
“direct-to” routings.
He stated that after he switched his pilot display he saw
He stated that he had used the help of the bid helpers, and had utilized
the “practice bid” but did not do very well on it, had downloaded the
bid practice, and mentioned he had a MAC and F/O had a Dell and the
download doesn’t work on a MAC.
When asked about the disposition of the flight plan, he didn’t recall if
Rick had done a top of climb fuel computation. The Captain did do a
mental fuel computation and compared it to the MCDU, but couldn’t
remember if Rick had written anything. The Captain also doesn’t know
what happened to the paperwork. The Captain said a chief pilot entered
the cockpit in MSP and Captain believes he may have taken the paperwork.
Regarding company reports, he stated that after a conversation with a
dispatcher on his jumpseat, he asked about position reports, and the
dispatcher said “don’t send us something unless it’s absolutely
necessary” because “we’re getting inundated with those things” and
because they already track the airplanes, know the fuel and know where
you are at. He did not send one, and didn’t know if the F/O had sent
one. He stated he and the F/O were drug tested on arrival in MSP. |
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