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Interview: First Officer Richard Irwin Cole
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Date: October 25, 2009 Location: Time: 1000
Present were: David Tew, Malcolm Brenner, David
Lawrence- National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB); T.R. Proven –FAA;
Pete Sahler – Northwest Airlines; Dan Coogan – ALPA, Christopher M.
Brown - ALPA Representative.
During the interview, F/O Cole stated the following
information:
He was 54 years old. His date of hire with Northwest
Airlines (NWA) was January 3, 1997. He began flying with the civil air
patrol at age 14 in a Piper Cub airplane. He flew in the ROTC at the His medical certificate required him to have glasses
with him and he said he had his glasses on the incident flight. He
stated that he had no medical problems during the previous six months
and he was taking no medications. The local police gave them a
breathalyzer test. He was drug tested by NWA after the flight [urine
test and breathalyzer].
F/O Cole stated that there had been no major changes
in his health in the past year. He characterized his health as good. His
hearing was good. He had a personal physician but had not visited him in
two years. He did not take prescription medicine. He drank alcohol and
his last use before the event was probably on Sunday drinking beer while
watching football on television. He smoked tobacco, about 1 pack per
day. His last use before the event: he perhaps smoked a cigarette
outside about one hour before departure. He did not smoke in the airport
or airplane. F/O Cole said not smoking for 3-4 hours was not a problem
for him. He might get “jittery” if he had not smoked all day. Here were
no major changes in his financial situation in the past year. He said he
had no financial worry.
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When he was not working, his typical sleep schedule was to go to bed
between 2300-2400 and wake up about 0700. He generally slept straight
through the night and felt rested with about seven hours sleep. When he
was at home, he sometimes took naps in the afternoon, from 1300 to 1400
or from 1400 to 1500, if he did not receive sufficient sleep. This
happened about half the time. He normally had no trouble falling and
staying asleep. He has never sought medical assistance for sleep issues.
The captain was personable, nice, and had a good attitude. He was from
He was based at MSP. For commuting, he preferred to fly long trips—5 day
sequences-- so he did not have to fly too many times back and forth
between his home and his base. He usually commuted to his base on the
day prior to beginning a trip and stayed in a hotel at his own expense.
Two 5-day trips and a 4-day trip were a good monthly sequence. This
month he had a good schedule: three 5-day trips with 2-days off between.
On Saturday October 17, he completed his second trip sequence at MSP,
caught the 1430 CDT flight to PDX, arrived at PDX, drove about one hour
to his home at
Asked about training on fatigue, he said that it was discussed at annual
training but not in depth. They were not trained on how to recognize
fatigue and deal with it. There was also discussion about distractions
but not in depth, no human factors perspective. If you call in fatigued,
the company will remove you from the trip with no questions asked. You
are still paid for the trip. They will replace you and coordinate your
schedule. They may return you to base. The policy is not to hold it
against you, with the consideration that the company has legal
liabilities if they were to force you to fly. He called in fatigued on
his first trip ever about 12 years ago. The company was not very happy
about it.
There were no designated rest periods in the reserve schedule at that
time. The crew was contacted at 1600 with an evening flight. He had been
awake all day. They experienced a long maintenance delay at one of the
enroute stops, arrived late at their next stop at 0300, and were
scheduled to fly one more leg. All three flight crew members refused to
fly the last leg due to fatigue. The company took them off the schedule
but the local agents tried to pressure them to take the flight because
the passengers had been waiting several hours. There were no
ramifications of their calling in fatigued. He may have called in
fatigued a second time but could not recall. He did not know specific
names of other pilots who had called in fatigued or what their
experiences might have been. After calling in fatigued, a person may get
a couple of one day trips instead of the sequence they were assigned.
He did not mind staying at a hotel at MSP at his own expense. He stayed
at several, although one local hotel gave pilots a good discount of $50.
It had a good van service and breakfast.
This month, his first trip had an identical schedule with an evening
flight to SAN that allowed a same day commute. He was able to nap before
the trip and it was uneventful. The middle trip began with an early
departure so he arrived the day before.
On Sunday October 18, he awoke after about 7-8 hours sleep. He used the
computer and watched sports on television in the morning with his
stepson. About 1600 PDT, the two children from his first marriage and
other friends of his children came to visit and his children stayed over
for the night. He spoke with them, ordered pizza for dinner about 1900
PDT, watched a movie with his wife, and went to sleep between 2300-2400
PDT.
On Monday October 19, he awakened about 0530 PDT with an alarm clock to
get the children ready for school and allow his wife to sleep late.
About 0700 PDT, he drove all the children to school [they all attended
the same high school]. The quality of his overnight sleep was limited
and he was tired all day Monday, and probably took a nap in the
afternoon. He made preparations for his upcoming trip [paying bills,
read letters and prepared his clothes], chauffeured his children home,
watched Monday night football, and went to bed at 2300 to 2330 PDT. He
did not conduct company business over the weekend other than perhaps
reading messages.
On Tuesday October 20, he awoke about 0330 PDT. His sleep was good but
too short and he felt tired. He showered, dressed, drank coffee, and
drove to the airport where he caught the 0630 PDT flight that arrived at
MSP at noon. He slept on the airplane for about two hours, probably in
and out of sleep but mostly asleep. Sleep quality on airplanes is not
100% but is restful. He was less tired when he arrived than when he
departed and planned to take a nap in the reclining chairs available to
pilots. There were several rooms available to pilots at MSP to rest.
There was a quiet room with complete darkness and multiple recliner
chairs. The recliner chairs lay almost flat and there were blankets and
pillows. He normally did not use the quiet room because there were
generally other crews asleep there, it was very dark, and one stumbled
around and heard other alarm clocks.
There was the main crew room with some chairs but it was noisy and there
were no pillows. Finally, there were smaller side rooms where the pilot
could close the door, sleep individually, and set an alarm without
disturbing others. He liked these and they were available most of the
time. However, he was unable to nap at MSP on Tuesday October 20 because
of vacation issues. He was on the computer and telephone in the crew
room computer area for about two hours. He was unable to access his
e-crew account. He ate an early dinner at a Chinese restaurant at the
airport consisting of General Tao’s chicken. He was scheduled for a 1720
flight to SAN and checked in at noon. The flight was uneventful. He met
the captain (“Tim”) at the airplane. They departed on time. The flight
was a little bumpy, maybe moderate turbulence, and the arrival was
uneventful. They arrived at the layover hotel about 2000-2030 PDT and he
went to his room. He was tired, did not eat, and went to bed at
2230-2300 PDT. The captain met his wife who had flown down from SEA for
the layover.
On Wednesday, October 21, he awoke about 0600-0630 PDT. The quality of
his sleep was good and he woke up rested and wide awake. He received
about seven hours sleep. He made coffee and went on the computer to
determine why he was off the computer system. About 1000 PDT, he went
for a walk along the docks. He ate lunch around 1100 PDT at a restaurant
across the street from the hotel, the meal consisted of fish and chips
and soda. He returned to the hotel to prepare for meeting at the 1300
van to the airport. The trip to the airport took about 5-10 minutes. At
the airport, he purchased a small salad to eat on the airplane since
they normally are not provided food. He ate it at the top of climb. He
also ate some of the crew meal that became available, consisting of meat
and potatoes with lemon pie. He normally drinks 4-5 cups of coffee per
day. He drank 1-2 cups when he awoke and 1 cup on the airplane.
There had been many personnel changes within the company and everything
was in a state of flux which was causing problems for everyone.
Everything was changing causing a headache. He said that some procedures
were just interim. New checklists may only be good for a few weeks. The
F/O said that at the start of the trip, he found out he did not get the
vacation time that he wanted. He had been locked out of the Delta
computer system and had been on the phone for hours trying to correct
that. The phone conversation occurred before the trip started. The bid
had closed so he did not get what he wanted. He said their vacation slot
was different from Delta’s. The NWA pilots slot was in the first three
months. Everybody was encountering problems.
The company was trying to do the best they could but everything was
changing. The NWA pilots were having the most changes. F/O Cole said he
told the captain of his frustration at being locked out of a vacation
bid. The F/O said he was going to have to take whatever they gave him.
There are lots of changes - manuals, checklists, bidding, etc. Most of
the changes were on the Northwest side because Delta was the acquiring
airline. F/O Cole said there was no excuse for not monitoring the
aircraft. He said he had to take blame. He said they had tunnel vision
and were so “focused”.
The incident occurred on the second day and second flight of his
sequence. The first day and first flight of the sequence was from MSP to
SAN. It was preplanned for the captain to fly the first two flight legs.
The F/As arrived on the airplane when it flew into SAN and the airplane
was about 20 minutes late arriving into SAN.
There was a delay of about 20 minutes in getting a departure slot from
SAN. The airplane was on autopilot during the climb and there were no
problems during climb. They used headsets until they reached cruise
altitude then removed their headsets. Climbing out of 400 feet and in
managed mode, he said you normally would put the autopilot on. F/O Cole
said he usually flew manually until the airplane was cleaned up. He
would disconnect the autopilot at about 1,000 feet when landing.
When asked if there were any direct clearances, he said they followed
the flight plan. He reported there was a little turbulence at 35,000.
They elected to climb to 37,000. He recalled the optimum and maximum
altitude was 37,000. Captain noted the airplane was “just not climbing”.
They were in open climb mode. At first, the climb rate was about 100
feet per minute. Later the climb rate increased to about 300 feet per
minute. He did not recall any conflict in call signs with other
aircraft. There was no congestion on the radio frequency. The amount of
traffic was “no more than usual”. The dome light was on bright Number 1
radio head was on the ATC frequency with the previous frequency in the
inactive window. Number 2 radio was set on 121.5 and the company
frequency was in the inactive window. He did not recall sending any
company position reports. He filled out the flight plan in accordance
with company procedures. He did not know what happened to the flight
plan after the flight. He assumed it went into the trash. He said the
toggle mike switch on the ACP affects speaker volume when toggled
between hot mike and cold mike. In hot mike, the speaker volume goes
down.
The last time he talked to
They were about one hour into the flight, maybe over
NWA had held clinics to help crewmembers on the bidding system. Some of
the clinic instructors were often barely used to the system themselves.
There were two editing programs to use when bidding. One program worked
on a remote laptop. One editing program worked on a company computer.
The F/O said he never thought he could be so distracted for so long. The
captain had his computer out and his bidding information was stored on
his computer. As an instructor, First Officer Cole was happy to assist
when the captain indicated he needed help. It began as a light
conversation but the captain pulled his computer out and it became
involved. His tray table was folded halfway. He said this was more
stable than full open. The focus of the conversation became more and
more on the bid issues. The F/O said he showed the captain how to go
through the bidding procedure.
He said that the captain brought out his computer when they were over
F/O Cole said they realized they were over MSP and had missed their
descent point. It was dark outside the airplane. F/O Cole contacted ATC
although he did not recall what frequency he used to contact the
controller. The F/O said “someone” [he did not know who] gave them the
correct radio frequency. He thought he might have made contact initially
on frequency 121.5. When he contacted ATC, he did not have to adjust the
volume. ATC asked them for verification and asked for our altitude and
position. They did not ask for an ident. Within a minute, they gave us a
turn of about 20-30 degrees. The F/O said he initially thought it was a
turn back to MSP. He later read it was an identifying turn.ATC asked for
their fuel state but did not initially ask why they passed MSP. Later
ATC asked “nature of problem” as they were being vectored. We said “crew
distraction”.
The captain said his MCDU was blank – nothing was on the screen. When
they were cleared back to MSP, the F/O programmed an arrival and then
ATC changed the arrival. ATC gave them a heading and vectored them to
runway 35. He had to put MSP into the MCDU again as the destination so
he could program the arrival. On the mode display, “airports” was
selected and this allowed them to see
He stated that with an ACARS message receipt, normal messages do not
print out – only weight data printed automatically. There was no aural
tone associated with an ACARS message. On the right side of the lower
screen of the ECAM, you would get an indication of a company message or
an ACARS message. A message would not automatically show up on the
screen, you had to “pull it up”. After they were back in radio contact,
the F/O said he went to “pull up” ATIS info and noticed there were
several messages on the lower screen. All he saw were the headings of
the messages which said “contact ATC” or “ATC is looking for you”. The
F/O said he inadvertently pushed the “delete all” button which erased
all the messages. Company procedures for NORAD were to try the ACARS and
ask someone in the area to try and make contact. The F/O did not know if
the company did these things.
The captain told the F/A that we would be about 20 minutes late. He
later told FA Bonnie what had happened. Neither pilot napped during the
event trip.
Only about five A-320 aircraft had SELCAL capability – they were the
extended range over water airplanes. He said that the incident airplane
did not have SECAL. Their fuel when they landed was about 10,000 lbs.
Pilots were paid when they were off for fatigue. The only regular
communication with the F/As was when they confirmed the F/As were ready
for takeoff. They would normally give the F/As a double chime signal
when they were leaving 10,000 feet or starting below 10,000 feet. For a
bathroom break, they would call a F/A so they could prepare for it. The
Lead F/A called a F/A from the back of the plane and a cart from the
galley was placed across the aisle. A codeword was given. The pilots
would check that the right people were in place. A F/A would go into the
cockpit when a pilot exited. When the bathroom break was over, the F/A
would look thru the viewer, the pilot would enter the cockpit and the
F/A would exit. He did not recall when the food trays were removed.
Bid results came out as a list of everyone and the trips and dates they
each had. On the trip system now he could pull up his line when he
opened the program as it automatically downloaded results. The captain
said he had gotten three early starting trips and would have to come to
MSP a day earlier for each trip.
He thought at least three ACARS messages had been sent to them from the
company. Radio duties were; On ground, F/O talks to ATC, Captain talked
to pushback crews, On runway, NFP talked, Inflight, NFP operated radios
– although other pilot talked while you ate.
Multi function control and display unit (MCDU) inputs were done by FP.
Both pilots acknowledged inputs. The captain programmed the FMS for the
flight to MSP. This was normally done by the FP and checked by the NFP.
The NFP performed the cockpit preflight. FMS was programmed for the
Sketr arrival but was not programmed for a runway. The autopilot will
step from point to point on the programmed flight plan until reaching a
discontinuity, at which point the airplane would go to a heading mode
and the current heading but there would be no aural chimes. The
indicator light for heading was green. When they were over MSP, the
weather below was overcast and they did not see the city lights. They
did not see MSP on the PD but did see the
They both had 121.5 frequency on the #2 radio. F/O Cole did not hear
anyone on the frequency after the F/A called. He broadcast on the
frequency and someone gave him a frequency to call.
The new bidding system was nothing like their old bidding system. You
needed a computer to bid or see what you got. As a commuter, he did not
have the “luxury” of attending classes. The last couple of months, there
had been a desk with knowledgeable people to help with problems. The
captain was not complaining of a problem with his bid due to any
financial concern. He was concerned with a loss of days at home. He
stated that the bidding system was complicated and frustrating. The
meals they received were left over from the first class service. He said
there were no procedures to check the SELCAL.
With regards to the Northwest crew room, he said there were a lot of new
computer areas they were using:
Got NWA company emails on NWA site
Check flights on the Delta system
To list on a flight, they needed to go to one of three sites depending
on which computer you were using
8 INTERVIEW SUMMARIES DCA10IA001 |
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